i apologize for constantly moving things from the comments box to the big screen! i just find them so much prettier (easier) to look at when they're up here! so, michael herman was saying,
"and then there is the bit noted in marshall rosenberg's non-violent communication, about what he refers to as flattery. he points out that so often we say things like "you're great," but don't say why. these "compliments" are really judgments and they can just as easily be flipped around. we don't like these "compliments" because we don't like any judgments being made about us. sometimes this flattery can be used as a means of subtle or not-so-subtle control, playing on whatever habit we have of trying to please others. better, says rosenberg, to say "i liked when you did..." or "i felt... when you did..." and own up to our own experience. then others can know better their effect and choose to do more or less of same."
this is so cool, distinguishing between giving a complement and providing flattery (how do you say that?). it brought to my mind the difference between praise and encouragement. in play therapy we say that in order to give power back to the child, an adult might want to avoid praise, in favor of encouragement. when one praises a child, "you did a good job," the message the child receives is he or she thinks that i did a good job. the adult is the all-knowing one. encouragement, on the other hand, would come in the form of, "wow, you worked really hard on that." which the child then internalizes as, wow, i did work really hard on that...and can choose to do more or less of the same based on his or her own judgment (which would probably be. wow, i did a good job!). the power is back inside the child.
so it appears that praise and flattery share some in common. they fill the space as a subtle or not-so-subtle means of control. and then there are complements and encouragement. they honor another being. i like that!
Comments:
Hi Ashley! These posts, and the thread I peeked at thru your window into Integral Naked, lead me to reflect on my own intentional behavior as an extravagant praiser--and I do think of what I offer as praise, as well as complimenting--with the distinctions being made here helpful and wise.
To me, praise is a form of prayer and gratitude and worship (in fact, the word I often like to use as a password is the Hebrew word for praise--oh, I guess that's supposed to be secret!). If I am moved or pleased by something I hear or see or by a quality I notice in someone I know, or don't know, I like to tell them so. Sometimes, it's true, people squirm a little or try to minimize the quality I am admiring. Just as often, maybe more often, though, people brighten up with (I think) the feeling of being recognized.
(oops--out of space--to be continued...)
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.03.04 - 1:15 am | #
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(The rest of my long-winded reflection)
Recognized as an aspect of the divine, in a way.
The other part is: I do enjoy receiving praise and compliments, too, and it wasn't always so--a function of being more comfortable with myself, I think, and that's been a function of getting older. Usually, I can say "thank you", and mean it, even if seems like flattery or superficial social lubrication; and in general I can often say "I'm so glad you like that--I like it too!" And, receiving a compliment graciously is like receiving a present--it is also a gift to the giver for their offering to be accepted with pleasure.
Thank you, Ashley, for offering the opportunity to consider these questions!
love, Christy
Christy Lee-Engel | 03.03.04 - 1:47 am | #
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well, well... you never know who you'll meet in a place like this! thanks for your email, christy... more on that by email....
...and this whole thing reminds me that the key element seems to me to be about "seeing" another person. witnessing them, and doing it when they are at their best, or at least their good... no judging... just noticing.
and then, as we see all and everything as teacher, it seems this worship/praise and noticed goodness shines through in all we say to each person we meet. so no "compliments" needed... just a lot of paying good attention and paying attention to good. huh.
michael herman | Email | Homepage | 03.03.04 - 12:45 pm | #
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Hi ya, Michael, too!
Oh, yes, that is the key, isn't it?--appreciation without judgment, just really seeing a person without having a subtle or not-so-subtle desire to control, "paying good attention and paying attention to good". You know, that kind of interaction/experience is profoundly simple and powerful medicine.
love,
Christy
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 2:13 am | #
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hey michael!
ashley, i'm intrigued to notice that you switched back and forth a few times between spellings. Webster says, "compliment - an expression of approval or admiration, esp: a flattering remark"...and "complement - something that fills up or completes."
so for me, here's what it's like to receive a complement: i have extended myself in relationship with a person. reached out, not knowing whether or how i have touched. there is a not-necessarily-uncomfortable feeling of incompletion.
then he/she tells me his/her experience of receiving...
(next message)
chris weaver | Email | 03.04.04 - 2:48 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and i experience the completion of a circuit of relationship. yes, michael, it's noticing, but what i find most meaningful is when my friend notices his/her own experience of receiving and shares that story, rather than articulating something "about" me.
i am thinking that giving "complements" like this is a wonderful art, and i am thinking that it invites love and creative intimacy. a complement honors the subtle nature of connection between people, how one person's word or gesture or smile evokes another person to open, or to journey, or to face a fear, or to burst into bloom.
& christy if i knew your password i bet it would describe this dance!
chris weaver | Email | 03.04.04 - 2:58 am | #
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yes, absolutely about sharing one's own experience of the other, chris. we actually touched on that a couple of posts back.
what a fun little gathering this turns out to be. feels like open space TO ME, ashley! (grin)
michael herman | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 1:47 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
seeing another person--
recognizing an aspect of the divine.
a circuit of relationship,
honoring the subtle nature of connection between people.
powerful medicine
ashley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 3:57 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and today i read in Positive Discipline about Celebrating: "When you are quick to celebrate any movement in the direction of a student's potential or maturity, you encourage. When you demand too much too soon, you discourage."
ashley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 3:57 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris, I find your phrase "how one person's word or gesture or smile evokes another person to..." to be itself an evocation, a drawing out/leaning in, celebration of movement; and the image that arises in me to complement that phrase is the Yin/Yang symbol, black and white fish swimming curled up head to tail--the most important part of that complementary pair being the tiny dot of the other that each one carries in its center.
A dance of both connection (one to the other) and communion (no other, just One)!
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 1:53 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOUR words christy just brought that symbol utterly to life for me.
ashley shared with me recently a description of masculine and feminine aspect/paths to enlightenment (ken wilbur's) - feminine being total absorbtion in love and masculine involving reflection...and i am liking the feel of the interplay between them as your two fish hula hooping around together...
chris weaver | Email | 03.05.04 - 8:34 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah! the revelation of aliveness is transmitted through your words, Chris--that little marks on a screen can carry life force is magic, isn't it?
Yes, I can see how the feminine principle/path is the one of total absorption of light (thus is the black fish; all that's dark, moist, cool, deep, receptive--that's Yin) and the masculine is the reflective, white/bright, transcendent, active--that's Yang. Inseparable.
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.06.04 - 3:05 am | #
"and then there is the bit noted in marshall rosenberg's non-violent communication, about what he refers to as flattery. he points out that so often we say things like "you're great," but don't say why. these "compliments" are really judgments and they can just as easily be flipped around. we don't like these "compliments" because we don't like any judgments being made about us. sometimes this flattery can be used as a means of subtle or not-so-subtle control, playing on whatever habit we have of trying to please others. better, says rosenberg, to say "i liked when you did..." or "i felt... when you did..." and own up to our own experience. then others can know better their effect and choose to do more or less of same."
this is so cool, distinguishing between giving a complement and providing flattery (how do you say that?). it brought to my mind the difference between praise and encouragement. in play therapy we say that in order to give power back to the child, an adult might want to avoid praise, in favor of encouragement. when one praises a child, "you did a good job," the message the child receives is he or she thinks that i did a good job. the adult is the all-knowing one. encouragement, on the other hand, would come in the form of, "wow, you worked really hard on that." which the child then internalizes as, wow, i did work really hard on that...and can choose to do more or less of the same based on his or her own judgment (which would probably be. wow, i did a good job!). the power is back inside the child.
so it appears that praise and flattery share some in common. they fill the space as a subtle or not-so-subtle means of control. and then there are complements and encouragement. they honor another being. i like that!
Comments:
Hi Ashley! These posts, and the thread I peeked at thru your window into Integral Naked, lead me to reflect on my own intentional behavior as an extravagant praiser--and I do think of what I offer as praise, as well as complimenting--with the distinctions being made here helpful and wise.
To me, praise is a form of prayer and gratitude and worship (in fact, the word I often like to use as a password is the Hebrew word for praise--oh, I guess that's supposed to be secret!). If I am moved or pleased by something I hear or see or by a quality I notice in someone I know, or don't know, I like to tell them so. Sometimes, it's true, people squirm a little or try to minimize the quality I am admiring. Just as often, maybe more often, though, people brighten up with (I think) the feeling of being recognized.
(oops--out of space--to be continued...)
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.03.04 - 1:15 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(The rest of my long-winded reflection)
Recognized as an aspect of the divine, in a way.
The other part is: I do enjoy receiving praise and compliments, too, and it wasn't always so--a function of being more comfortable with myself, I think, and that's been a function of getting older. Usually, I can say "thank you", and mean it, even if seems like flattery or superficial social lubrication; and in general I can often say "I'm so glad you like that--I like it too!" And, receiving a compliment graciously is like receiving a present--it is also a gift to the giver for their offering to be accepted with pleasure.
Thank you, Ashley, for offering the opportunity to consider these questions!
love, Christy
Christy Lee-Engel | 03.03.04 - 1:47 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, well... you never know who you'll meet in a place like this! thanks for your email, christy... more on that by email....
...and this whole thing reminds me that the key element seems to me to be about "seeing" another person. witnessing them, and doing it when they are at their best, or at least their good... no judging... just noticing.
and then, as we see all and everything as teacher, it seems this worship/praise and noticed goodness shines through in all we say to each person we meet. so no "compliments" needed... just a lot of paying good attention and paying attention to good. huh.
michael herman | Email | Homepage | 03.03.04 - 12:45 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi ya, Michael, too!
Oh, yes, that is the key, isn't it?--appreciation without judgment, just really seeing a person without having a subtle or not-so-subtle desire to control, "paying good attention and paying attention to good". You know, that kind of interaction/experience is profoundly simple and powerful medicine.
love,
Christy
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 2:13 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey michael!
ashley, i'm intrigued to notice that you switched back and forth a few times between spellings. Webster says, "compliment - an expression of approval or admiration, esp: a flattering remark"...and "complement - something that fills up or completes."
so for me, here's what it's like to receive a complement: i have extended myself in relationship with a person. reached out, not knowing whether or how i have touched. there is a not-necessarily-uncomfortable feeling of incompletion.
then he/she tells me his/her experience of receiving...
(next message)
chris weaver | Email | 03.04.04 - 2:48 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and i experience the completion of a circuit of relationship. yes, michael, it's noticing, but what i find most meaningful is when my friend notices his/her own experience of receiving and shares that story, rather than articulating something "about" me.
i am thinking that giving "complements" like this is a wonderful art, and i am thinking that it invites love and creative intimacy. a complement honors the subtle nature of connection between people, how one person's word or gesture or smile evokes another person to open, or to journey, or to face a fear, or to burst into bloom.
& christy if i knew your password i bet it would describe this dance!
chris weaver | Email | 03.04.04 - 2:58 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, absolutely about sharing one's own experience of the other, chris. we actually touched on that a couple of posts back.
what a fun little gathering this turns out to be. feels like open space TO ME, ashley! (grin)
michael herman | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 1:47 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
seeing another person--
recognizing an aspect of the divine.
a circuit of relationship,
honoring the subtle nature of connection between people.
powerful medicine
ashley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 3:57 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and today i read in Positive Discipline about Celebrating: "When you are quick to celebrate any movement in the direction of a student's potential or maturity, you encourage. When you demand too much too soon, you discourage."
ashley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.04 - 3:57 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris, I find your phrase "how one person's word or gesture or smile evokes another person to..." to be itself an evocation, a drawing out/leaning in, celebration of movement; and the image that arises in me to complement that phrase is the Yin/Yang symbol, black and white fish swimming curled up head to tail--the most important part of that complementary pair being the tiny dot of the other that each one carries in its center.
A dance of both connection (one to the other) and communion (no other, just One)!
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 1:53 am | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOUR words christy just brought that symbol utterly to life for me.
ashley shared with me recently a description of masculine and feminine aspect/paths to enlightenment (ken wilbur's) - feminine being total absorbtion in love and masculine involving reflection...and i am liking the feel of the interplay between them as your two fish hula hooping around together...
chris weaver | Email | 03.05.04 - 8:34 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah! the revelation of aliveness is transmitted through your words, Chris--that little marks on a screen can carry life force is magic, isn't it?
Yes, I can see how the feminine principle/path is the one of total absorption of light (thus is the black fish; all that's dark, moist, cool, deep, receptive--that's Yin) and the masculine is the reflective, white/bright, transcendent, active--that's Yang. Inseparable.
Christy Lee-Engel | Email | Homepage | 03.06.04 - 3:05 am | #
Labels: compliments
